Ashraf Tubeileh

[00:00:00] Elizabeth Sine: Okay, we're here with the Mawtini project recording an oral history interview with Ashraf Tubeileh. Conducting the interview is myself, Elizabeth Sine and Ashraf. I'll have you say and spell your name for us, please. [00:00:18] Ashraf Tubeileh: Sure. Good morning. My name is Ashraf Tubeileh. A-S-H-R-A-F, last name Tubeileh, T-U-B-E-I-L-E-H. [00:00:29] Elizabeth Sine: Wonderful, thank you. [00:00:30] Ashraf Tubeileh: Sure. [00:00:30] Elizabeth Sine: And today's date is June 30th, 2025, and it's about 9:45 in the morning. We are conducting this recording in San Luis Obispo, California. Okay. Also one more formality before we enter into conversation. Ashraf, do I have your consent to record this interview? [00:00:54] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yes. [00:00:55] Elizabeth Sine: Thank you. And do I have your consent to archive the recording with the Mawtini project. [00:00:59] Ashraf Tubeileh: Absolutely. Yes. [00:01:00] Elizabeth Sine: Okay. Thank you. [00:01:01] Ashraf Tubeileh: Sure. [00:01:03] Elizabeth Sine: Alright, so getting started. Could you share when and where you were born? [00:01:10] Ashraf Tubeileh: I was born in Nablus, Palestine in 1973. [00:01:15] Elizabeth Sine: Okay. What are some of your earliest memories? [00:01:23] Ashraf Tubeileh: I think some of the really earliest memories is visit to Syria that we had with my parents, and my younger brother, and my mother was pregnant with my sister who is four years younger than me. [00:01:48] Ashraf Tubeileh: So I must have been like, what, like less than four years old at the time, because it's like we, we really have four years and ten days between us and eleven days between us, so, it must have been like, maybe like four months, maybe to four years or so. Like three years, eight months. Seven, eight months around there. [00:02:12] Elizabeth Sine: Okay. [00:02:12] Ashraf Tubeileh: I think this is as far as I can go in my memory. [00:02:16] Elizabeth Sine: Yeah. [00:02:17] Ashraf Tubeileh: I don't remember anything younger than that. Yeah. [00:02:20] Elizabeth Sine: When you think of that early memory in the trip to Syria, do you remember what you were traveling for, and what stands out when you think about that experience? What is the memory of that? [00:02:32] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah, so we were, yeah, we were traveling to visit family on my mom's side. So she has lots of family on yeah, like on, well, her, I think, mostly her mother's side, so my grandmother's side in Syria. And, we were like, we did a tour, because like they live in different places in Syria. So we did a tour of Syria. [00:03:00] Ashraf Tubeileh: Some of the earliest things that I remember, like, there was the sound of a train, which was new to me. I never kind of witnessed that before. There was in a couple of places of like rivers, small rivers. I still remember, I think losing my kind of little plastic car on a tour room in Damascus. And like, never being able to find that. Like, it just disappeared, vanished. [00:03:35] Ashraf Tubeileh: What else? And on the way back from that trip, actually, well this will get me into politics plus other things. These are not the only memories I still have. I have like maybe 10 or like maybe more events from that, you know, like still kind of passing by my memory from time to time. [00:03:54] Ashraf Tubeileh: One of the most kind of powerful ones was, you know, like going back into the West Bank, Palestine, like going home, like everyone would, you know, like stop being kind of checked and really well, like, women would need to get undressed and you know, like will be checked thoroughly. Everything. Just so that they don't have any, anything, actually, I had toys actually at the time were prohibited. Not anymore, but like at the time even, you know, like I had a little, I think train on tracks that my father had bought for me in Syria and that was not allowed. It's just like plastic, you know, train on tracks and that was not allowed. So I remember them taking that from me and dumping that in the garbage bin because it's just not allowed because it's a security kind of matter for them. [00:04:50] Ashraf Tubeileh: So, so that's another kind of memory I kind of remember on the way back. And a few other things like that. I still remember, like, I remember, you know, going behind one of my mother, mother's cousins and I think we went, we went on a trip on his motorbike. I was like, you know, like, hugging him from the back and we went to grab some rollers, some hair rollers for my mother from somewhere. I don't remember where that was. Like, it is just some random, you know, like some of them may be strange kind of memories, but yeah, because she wanted kind of to do her hair and they didn't have, you know, like her rollers. Well at the time, you know, like people used kind of to do these things and yeah. So, that was another one. [00:05:41] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah. And a few other things, you know, like kind of similar little flashes of memory, you know, like maybe each one is like two seconds or five seconds, or really short, you know, like, but very special moments that I think I kind of never had afterwards for the most part. Yeah. Like me dipping my feet also in, in a river. That was really, you know, like, kind of going like really hard. It was like going, you know, kind of very sloping, kind of like cascade type of, you know, kind of little river. And then, yeah, I think one of the, my mother's cousins was holding me from the back, like just to dip my feet in the water. [00:06:25] Ashraf Tubeileh: There was that as well. Yeah. And, seeing also ships, I remember seeing, yeah, a ship, you know, like waiting kind of to dock offshore from Baniyas in Syria. Yeah. [00:06:42] Elizabeth Sine: Was traveling whether to Syria to visit family or elsewhere, was that a regular part of your upbringing or was that trip that you're remembering sort of a more rare kind of vacation? [00:06:57] Ashraf Tubeileh: I would say maybe at the time we would be tra-, because traveling was very hard at the time. So to travel, pretty much, it was all kind of by road. So, and like cars, changing cars all the time, especially to cross, you know, like kind of to cross into Jordan from the West Bank, which was under Israeli occupation to Jordan, you would need to change like two, three, four vehicles because again, for security checks, because you cannot, you know, like vehicles cannot go beyond a certain point just so that they make sure that, you know, like this vehicle isn't transporting anything, you know, that it is, you know, like kind of hidden and the whatever, in a compartment or whatever in the vehicle. So you need, you know, like to get down from a vehicle and then, you know, like, yeah, step into another one and so forth. So that was, and at the time I remember like, people would line up like starting five, 6:00 AM you know, like for the crossing point, at the crossing point for it to open at 8:00 AM and then at the time also they would close like maybe one or 2:00 PM so you only had, you know, like four or five hours kind of to cross. Otherwise you just go back home and try another day. So people would line up, you know, like in the thousands to get, you know, like basically to that crossing point just to get onto the other side of the border. On the other side of the border, you're free basically. You know, like once you're in Jordan. Yeah, you forget about the Israelis and everything they do and you know, like you're free to do whatever you want. Like go, you know, like take, like a flight, take whatever, you know, and go all the way. Put yourself in a cargo all the way to Turkey or to Saudi Arabia or anywhere. But once you're past that border, you know that the Israelis kind of control you're, yeah, you're good to go. So... [00:08:54] Elizabeth Sine: And then crossing back, and then crossing back in would be even more... [00:08:56] Ashraf Tubeileh: Oh, is more like, even more, you know, like with now they're even more worried that you're kind of, you like moving things in. And they yeah, they want to check like every little piece of, you know, like anything that you have luggage again, you know, people would like, you know, like ladies would really have to undress, completely undress while going and kind of, you know, like into side room undress in front of like a soldier, female soldiers usually. But, yeah, they, and get really checked, you know, like with everything, their purses there, everything would be checked. [00:09:33] Elizabeth Sine: How did that feel for you as a child? That memory stands out so much of with the toy, but also I imagine witnessing your family going through that. Do you remember the feeling? [00:09:44] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah, well the feeling was, you know, like my toy was just, you know, it was doomsday to me. You know, it was the end of the world because they just took that source of pleasure for me that I was, you know, so fond of, so proud of having, you know. And one of the earliest things that I've, you know, like, and maybe, I don't remember any travels before that, so that could be my first travel with family, you know, like away, or like, well, first travel period. And so I, yeah, that was really something special, because that was my first souvenir from, you know, like a travel. And so that was kind of very devastating to me. I still remember it. So it has to be very, like, very special, you know, very at, at the time, very like, well, I don't what the word is. Like, you know, like very enraging. So as a kid, because I'm, again, less than four years old and they're taking this away from me for no reason. So, yeah. Sorry, I'm missing I think parts of the question... [00:10:56] Elizabeth Sine: Oh, no, no, no. What you're sharing is really, it makes sense. Yeah. I was just asking about the feelings that go with that experience. And so growing up then in Nablus, what, what memories do you have of growing up there? [00:11:17] Ashraf Tubeileh: So, well, growing up in Nablus was not kind of the most fun thing, you know, like, I can divide it into kind of maybe two periods. So there was the period before 1987, which was the Intifada, the first Intifada. And at, at that time, yeah, I would just be like kids playing in the streets and, like nothing really special, you know, like to report on, except for sometimes, you know, like we would have curfews sometimes we would have like, we'd hear of something happening, but most of the time, you know, like things would just be like business as usual. [00:11:58] Ashraf Tubeileh: And we would see, I remember one, one day, I think that was, I remember one day seeing, Israeli armored vehicles passing kind of through the town. And, this is also like something special that I've, I had not seen before. You know, they have wheels on the front and then they're armored vehicles and they have, like, steel belt, just like, you know, like a tank basically on the back. So the, they're kind of, you know, like hybrid, basically kind of vehicles. I remember seeing those, while, while I was, I was a kid, you know, like with, I think with my aunt maybe at the time just walking by like in, in downtown and they were kind of passing by. I don't, it was if it was a patrol or something. [00:12:50] Ashraf Tubeileh: But yeah, this is another kind of memory from probably that, that would be probably the seventies. Yeah. Kind of maybe late seventies, I would say. Yeah. Other than that, after the, like the Intifada, I don't if you are kind of familiar with the term, but this was basically the uprising in the West Bank and Gaza Strip against the Israeli occupation. [00:13:17] Ashraf Tubeileh: Then now things kind of took really violent, you know, kind of more like, radical turn. And now I would remember, you know, like being chased by soldiers, throwing rocks at soldiers basically, you know, like kind of playing this kind of game, you know, like, pretty much, you know, like every day and then going to school. [00:13:42] Ashraf Tubeileh: The schools would, some of them, you know, like certain years, like 19, I think 89 probably was the most, what's the word? Like, 1989 was very, very intense in terms of clashes with, with the Israelis. And then like the schools would close like four or five months out of their school year. So, you know, some of them, like in, well, I was in high school at the time and that was a hotbed for the resistance, you know, like, and for, the whatever you want, you know, to call that. [00:14:18] Ashraf Tubeileh: Like, you know, like kids basically like school kids, you know, like, throwing kind of rocks at the Israeli soldiers, and especially that there was by the high school where I kind of that, that I went to, there was a military post just like, 200 meters, which is like 300 yards away from that. So that was, that was a friction, you know, like kind of point all the time with them. [00:14:46] Elizabeth Sine: When you say that they would close the schools, who, was it the decision of folks in Palestine and in the West Bank to close the schools. Was this Israeli closure of the schools? [00:14:59] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah, at the time they had something called, the civil administration. It was a military civil administration, but it was all soldiers in charge of different things. So they would have an officer in charge of health, they would have an officer in charge of education, another one in charge of transport, another one in charge of another, whatever, you know, like thing that. So it would always come from the Israeli officer and like military officer, like general or like whatever, you know, like, in charge of that, of that service or of that, you know, like discipline that would say, okay, you know, if there was a problem with this school, so this school would close for like two months or two weeks or four months. So... [00:15:51] Elizabeth Sine: So that was to discipline the students? [00:15:52] Ashraf Tubeileh: To discipline the students. Yeah. [00:15:54] Elizabeth Sine: Okay. Wow. What do you remember from those experiences or those times? I mean, you mentioned this kind of like day to day friction, but, but also, those are big chunks of time to have the school close down. What do you recall of those experiences? [00:16:15] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah. Well actually it was, and, and this was, this had a big toll on, on everything for us. You know, like, on the amount of education that we would get, because like, I mean, there's no way you can catch up, you know, like outside of school. And that had the toll even on my grades or, you know, like going, we have like, it's, it's like the SAT pretty much, you know, that we had the test. And at the time I was hoping, you know, like I would go like to engineering school or maybe you know med school or something really, you know, like kind of top. But because we had that four month closure of the school, I couldn't get the grades I wanted to. So, because, you know, like you compete with everyone else and you know, like your school just closed for like four months. You're not getting the same amount of education. So that had a big toll on me and on my grades. [00:17:07] Ashraf Tubeileh: That's one thing for sure I remember. And then, yeah, the other thing is that, okay, you know, if you don't go to school, what do you do in your day? You know, like, yeah, okay, you just sit or you just, you know, like go play on the street, which was pretty much what we would do, you know, either this play on the street or just throw more rocks, you know, like on the, in the streets, on the kind of the military, kind of vehicles, Israeli military vehicles that would be passing by. [00:17:32] Ashraf Tubeileh: So, yeah. And sometimes we would have curfews as well. And the curfew is, well this is of course, something that people in the US don't know because like, well, except for maybe when there's riots, for example, in LA or you know, like basically nobody can. Even sometimes, you know, people under curfew would receive a bullet if they, you know, like peek out of the window. [00:17:55] Ashraf Tubeileh: So sometimes they'd be that strict that, you know, like a curfew, just sit inside and don't show your face, you know, like anywhere. So, and that was very common. We, I remember we had a curfew, I think for 42 days during the 1991 war. Basically when the US intervened, you know, like to push the Iraqis out of Kuwait. So during the Kuwait war. That would be January '91, I think. January '91. Yes. We had, I remember we had a 40 day curfew. Well, they will lift the curfew for a couple of hours, like possibly every week, you know, like two hours or so, just so that people can, you know, like kind of go out, buy food, go back home. [00:18:45] Ashraf Tubeileh: And then kind of wait for the other, you know, like kind of week or so without, you know, like kind of moving. So, so that, that's another kind of thing that is, that I, yeah, like that has shaped my, who I am now, you know, like kind of those curfew and not being able to do anything and just sit, you know, like inside and wait for the orders, you know, like to come out. [00:19:09] Elizabeth Sine: Yeah. [00:19:09] Ashraf Tubeileh: That was another, yeah, kind of... [00:19:10] Elizabeth Sine: I'm also thinking like those are your teenage years and your young adulthood. [00:19:14] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yes. [00:19:14] Elizabeth Sine: And to like, adds a layer to that experience, I imagine. When you think back to those years and, and growing up amid all of that, who, what were some of your most meaningful relationships? Who stands out in your memory as kind of your people? [00:19:35] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah. I, so my. Well, we had, we were a family of four kids and a mother and a father. So, so my father would always be there, my mother as well. And then we have, at the time, well, I have cousins and uncles and, so yeah, this extended family would be there. [00:20:07] Elizabeth Sine: In the shared, in shared housing did they live with you? [00:20:10] Ashraf Tubeileh: No, no, no, no, no. We live, no, everyone would, no. Shared housing used to be, well, it, it is still, or it was still, you know, kind of a thing in more kind of, well in rural areas more so. And in some, like more densely populated areas, older areas, maybe kind of more kind of, I dunno how to put it, you know, like kind of poorer areas maybe would still be, you know, like kind of, yeah. But no, like with my, well I remember my mother would tell me at the time that, so my father had this little piece of land and he waited so long actually to get married because he didn't have enough money, you know, like kind of to get a house for himself and his bride. [00:21:04] Ashraf Tubeileh: And then so they had to wait or he had to wait mostly, a little bit, you know, like, but when he finished the house and the house was ready for my mom to come in, there was, he was already living with his mother and unmarried sister and nephew. So there was some extended family, if you wish, that had just moved in with him because, because I think the mother was living with my other uncle and they had like sixty stairs or something. It was so hard on her and she was sick. She couldn't, like, she was just, you know, like, yeah, like couldn't do anything. So she had moved for the remainder of her life, which was just a few months, I think, or like, or like two years. Well, yeah, possibly two years, because I think she died when I was six months old or so. [00:22:08] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah. So, and then there was the nephew, his parents were in Kuwait and yeah, he was living with my dad and he was, I dunno, he's ten plus years older than me. So, yeah. And my aunt, I remember that like, yeah, she was there for a good chunk of my life. Yeah. And then she got married afterwards for a little bit, and then, yeah, that didn't last and she came back. So, yeah. But for the most part, my, my mother was, it was like just us, you know, like living in the house. For that part. [00:22:51] Elizabeth Sine: And so the cousins and aunts and uncles were in the same town or nearby? [00:22:53] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah. Same town nearby for the most part. They would come visit. I have like a close, like uncle on my mother's side. Like my mother's brother. He would come, yeah. Like he is the closest to us, because he would come like at least once a week, you know, like, come visit us with his family and so forth. Yeah. [00:23:17] Elizabeth Sine: Where does your family trace their heritage and roots from? [00:23:25] Ashraf Tubeileh: So my mother. I'll start with my father because it's easier. My father traces his roots like for generations, I don't know how many, like ten, maybe more, to Nablus, because he did tell me, yeah, like told me, you know, like kind of names of some of his, you know, ancestors and they all kind of were born and always lived in Nablus. [00:23:48] Ashraf Tubeileh: But my mother's story is a little different. So my mother, her mother was originally from Nablus, but she was born in Haifa, which became Israel in 1948. And her father was always from Haifa. So they met somewhere in Haifa maybe. And in 1948, so my grandfather and his family, they were all kind of kicked out of Haifa and the, like, things happened so abruptly that like, everyone went into a different direction. [00:24:30] Ashraf Tubeileh: So my grandfather, he was, I think like out working somewhere, because he would, he was like doing some sort of like a mechanic type of job, you know, like fix engines, fix like irrigation pumps and things like that. And I think he was, he was working somewhere or whatever when, you know, like the orders were given, like things like, you know, like the Israeli militias would just go in and tell people, everyone go out, you know, like, everyone leave your houses and people would just leave. [00:25:02] Ashraf Tubeileh: I remember he told me he, he only left with, you know, like his jacket on and like, couldn't, you know, like even didn't have time, you know, like to take anything with them besides, you know, like they had. So my mother was born in Nablus so that was after, well she was born in 51. So three years after, after the nakba. [00:25:23] Ashraf Tubeileh: But my older, so everyone older than her, which is one, two, three, four siblings older than her, and then she has two younger, no hold on, three older and two younger. They're six, all of them. So three older siblings were born in Haifa before that. And my mother was born in Nablus. She was the second one to be born in Nablus, I think. Yeah. [00:26:01] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah. So, so they had, you know, like basically the, just their clothes on, you know, like, and the kids, that's, that's everything they could, you know, like kind of take with them when they were kicked out of their house in Haifa. So, but his, his family were, were all from Haifa and because of that, and because everyone was, you know, like in I don't know, like a specific district or whatever, or neighborhood of the town, so some of his family ended up in Syria, some in Lebanon, some in Jordan, some in Palestine. So they were scattered across for what became four different countries at the time. So, and this is my, this is my grandfather's side, my mother's side, actually, no, this is my grandmother's side. [00:27:00] Ashraf Tubeileh: My grandfather's side kind of, most of them went to Lebanon, but my grandmother's side, which were originally from Nablus, but like her wherever, like her sisters, some of her sisters, kind of what they, but, because they were living in Haifa at the time, so they had, and Haifa is close. Haifa is in the north. So it's closer to Lebanon and Syria. [00:27:22] Ashraf Tubeileh: So some of her family went to Lebanon, some others went to Syria. Others went to Jordan. And then she came with her husband to Nablus. So, yeah. So scattered all over the place. [00:27:38] Elizabeth Sine: Yeah. And you mentioned that happening so abruptly and that people wound up in different places. Is your sense of that scattering, like did people have a chance to kind of make, like, determine where, what would be the best place to go? Or was it like just everyone had to get out? Like, I'm trying to understand how that scattering happened. [00:27:59] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah. It was panic. It was just everyone, you know, just run with your life. And it wasn't, there was no plans. No, no, you know, like, "You're going here, you're going there, you know, like you're going to stay with those folks or, or this or that." [00:28:12] Ashraf Tubeileh: Like, everyone would just go, you know, like, and run for their lives. And then, afterwards through friends, through connections, through, you know, like permanent kind of, you know, like points that stayed, they would communicate and find each other again. So, so I remember back in the eighties, I think, or so one of my grandfather's, sisters, I dunno how many sisters he had or like how many siblings he had to start with. Well I know he has at least one brother, maybe at least this sister, so because they have like their family still in, in Lebanon. But like, he kind of, reunited with this sister in the eighties, I remember. And she came, she came to visit and stayed with him actually until she died back in the eighties. [00:29:04] Elizabeth Sine: Wow. They just reconnected all those years later. [00:29:06] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah. Just reconnected. Yeah. Like twenty well, forty years after or thirty years after. Yeah. [00:29:11] Elizabeth Sine: Wow. And growing up was that family history and those experiences, were those talked about much? Like, did you receive stories about that experience or how did that, what was the place of that in your... [00:29:26] Ashraf Tubeileh: When, you know, like, yeah, I mean, sometimes we would ask like my grandfather kind of to tell us a story sometimes, but these were painful moments for him and you know, like he would not necessarily you know, like kind of share all the details at the time. [00:29:43] Ashraf Tubeileh: But yeah, like, this is, you know, these are some of the stories that I heard from him about, you know, like him for example, and going like on a mule or something. Just, you know, like kind of walking out of the town and just having his, just his jacket on, pretty much. And, so, so they would, yeah, they would kind of give us some, you know, like big picture things, but not too much details about what happened. [00:30:11] Ashraf Tubeileh: And you know, like all the things that happened along the way. Yeah. But my mother knows, I think, or like she heard because, well also she's closer, she spent more time with them, probably she knows also some of these details, so she would kind of, yeah, kind of give us some of these details afterwards. [00:30:38] Elizabeth Sine: So it sounds like the family that was present and nearby was a big part of your life growing up. And were there other friendships or schoolmates who, like the outside of your family or the other people that stand out, as part of your world in those years? [00:31:01] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah. Well... [00:31:02] Elizabeth Sine: Or even teachers or whether it's other generations or elders... [00:31:06] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah, teachers. I remember kind of one of these when actually two teachers stand out in my life. You know, like the English teacher and the Arabic teacher. The English teacher because he was so engaging and he was, and I think I owe him a lot of, you know, what I have today. You know, like my, well, if I can call it a success, you know, like being able, well to leave Palestine for the first part, you know. And, so a lot of the credit goes to him because I just, he made me, he made me love English. Also the Arabic teacher because he was very, very hard pushing, you know, always kind of raised the bar. [00:31:48] Ashraf Tubeileh: I remember going from elementary school to middle school, how, you know, like he would have like quizzes, you know, pretty much every day for us. And you know, like the first couple I really sucked on those. I was getting two out of ten, three out of ten, you know, like, and I was, I would even not show these, you know, like to my mother and just kind of show them like somewhere, like throw them away or put them, I remember putting some of those in kind of, in between rocks, you know, like in walls here and there, just trying to get rid of them. And then afterwards, I, yeah, like he, like, well my grades started to improve of course because, you know, like he was so rigorous and he wanted everyone to do well. [00:32:31] Ashraf Tubeileh: So, he made me also love, you know, like Arabic and understand, you know, the beauties of the language and, and work harder. So these two teachers, you know, like taught me to work harder and, you know, like, that things do not come easy, you know, like in life. Yeah. Besides the teachers, I... So one, one person that stands out and sorry, you know, like a lot of these kind of memories are kind of traumatic and, you know, like sad. [00:33:02] Ashraf Tubeileh: But one person was kind of a friend. He was more like a teammate. I remember starting to play, you know, like soccer at the time, kind of, you know, like for a club. So that was a big thing for me. And, I was what again, maybe sixteen, fifteen? Because this was before 1989, so probably, probably even fourteen maybe? And, yeah. [00:33:36] Ashraf Tubeileh: So, yeah, and there, there was this guy, he was like the star of the team. And I remember I, I got us a penalty kick because I, like, I shot, you know, like I had a shot at the goal and the guy kind of held the ball with his hands. So we got the penalty kick and this guy would give me a hard time, although we were good friends and everything, and when it was, you know, like, because he was the star and when it was, you know, like, sub time, so he, like, he would, you know, he just kind of teasing me, he would tell the coach, "Yeah, sub Ashraf." And I got, you know, like, yeah. I mean, he drove me mad like at the time, I mean, this is a stupid memory, but, I still remember that. And we were good friends and everything, so, "Ah, why would you do that?" And then, yeah, I got subbed at the time, and the next thing I hear about him was that he was shot dead by the Israelis. [00:34:32] Ashraf Tubeileh: So that was, that was like a big, you know, like shock, you know, like, oh no, you know. I couldn't believe it at the time that it was him, you know, like he was, he was killed. So, and you know, like we're talking, he was probably, I dunno, a year or two older maybe than me. So probably sixteen, seventeen. [00:34:57] Elizabeth Sine: Would you be comfortable sharing about like, receiving that, like where, or how you received that news? [00:35:02] Ashraf Tubeileh: That news was actually advertised, we used to have, you know, like people or like the groups, you know, like resistance groups would have bullhorns announcing these things, bullhorns, you know, like going in the streets and you know, like, at night they would, they would, yeah announce kind of, yeah, like there was like this, you know, like, well, they'd call them martyrs of course. They would say, yeah, like one person was just, you know, like killed. And then they announced his name. So I heard it on the bullhorn. [00:35:34] Elizabeth Sine: Yeah. [00:35:36] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah. So this is one of the, I still remember his name also. You know, like, well we kind of, we were just friends from soccer, so we'd just meet, you know, like for soccer-ish. But actually where, you know, like kind of the older family house, like where my uncle and his family kind of lived, that would be closer kind of to where this kid kind of lived. [00:36:01] Ashraf Tubeileh: So I would probably, you know, like kind of cross paths with him, you know, like from time to time, but like I've seen him probably, I don't know, like, besides, you know, like playing soccer, I don't know, like five times total or something. So, yeah. So that was, another shock in, in my life. That I just couldn't believe, you know, like this was him. [00:36:28] Elizabeth Sine: How did that impact you? [00:36:32] Ashraf Tubeileh: Well, actually after that, because it was already into Intifada time, I think. After that soccer stopped. So we would not even play, you know, like, I mean, at least organized soccer. We'd still play in the streets. Well, less so, less so, because, you know, it was not safe anymore. And you know, like... [00:36:52] Elizabeth Sine: So soccer stopped because it wasn't safe? [00:36:54] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah. Yeah. [00:36:54] Elizabeth Sine: Or was that a disciplinary closure too? [00:36:56] Ashraf Tubeileh: Well, both. [00:36:57] Elizabeth Sine: Okay. [00:36:58] Ashraf Tubeileh: Both because, you know, like everything, well, they were closing schools, closing clubs, closing anything that would, you know, like any gatherings, pretty much. [00:37:06] Elizabeth Sine: Yeah. [00:37:07] Ashraf Tubeileh: So, yeah, so soccer stopped because of that. And then people were not really in the mood of playing soccer anyways, you know, like, and there was no, you know, like, I mean, people are being killed, so, you know, like who wants to play soccer? [00:37:23] Ashraf Tubeileh: So, yeah. So that kind of was another, well, it's kind of a, it's a few things happening at the same time, but, you know, this, like him was kind of a big part of that. And I still remember him, you know, like I still kind of, yeah, I remember his name, you know, his full name and everything. But, yeah, that's still part of my memories and like my big kind of events from the time. [00:37:52] Elizabeth Sine: Yeah. And kind of following what you're sharing about your upbringing and kind of coming back to, you mentioned, the influential teachers that you referenced, and the English teacher in particular, you said, played a big role in you leaving Palestine. At what point did you leave Palestine? Or, and how did that come about and where did you go? [00:38:20] Ashraf Tubeileh: So, I left Palestine after finishing high school. I got the scholarship, to finish my, like, to do my grad education in France. [00:38:34] Elizabeth Sine: Okay. [00:38:36] Ashraf Tubeileh: And, well I was studying French at the time, so that helped as well. So like, they wanted something, someone who... Remember how I told you before that my grades were not the best? So, so other people would have qualified if they had, you know, like better, kind of command on the language, for example. I had the same experience with, remember how I told you like, well, I was good in English. Much better than pretty much anyone else I would say in my, you know, like, at least in my class, if you wish, class from, well, like what I was studying, which was plant, like agriculture, pretty much plant production. [00:39:24] Ashraf Tubeileh: So, yeah, but I, at the same time I was also studying French on my own. Well, I was going to something called like, French Cultural Center and I was yeah, taking, kind of French courses there. So, and this was while I was, yeah, I was still an undergrad, so that started pretty much at the same time, I would say, as I was starting school. [00:39:59] Elizabeth Sine: Okay. [00:39:59] Ashraf Tubeileh: So, yeah. And then they had, there was, I think they had ten scholarships available, kind of, yeah, to study to go to France, kind of, do grad education. And I applied for those and I got one of them. So. [00:40:17] Elizabeth Sine: Wow. [00:40:17] Ashraf Tubeileh: I was lucky. [00:40:18] Elizabeth Sine: Yeah. [00:40:18] Ashraf Tubeileh: I was lucky, because otherwise, you know, just going by my grades, I would not have gotten that. [00:40:22] Elizabeth Sine: Yeah. And trying to, like, reflecting on kind of those teenage years where you're living through and experiencing so much, and then also kind of, moving through your education, like, and imagining pathways for yourself. Like was, did you have a desire to study elsewhere and to move elsewhere, kind of along the way, or did that come later, or, I'm just... [00:40:59] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah, yeah. No, I always did. Actually, my mother would always push me. She would always tell me, yeah, like, "You're gonna be a college professor. You're gonna be [inaudible]. You need to do a doctorate." Always, you know, she would tell me that. Well, of course, just like all mothers, she thought I was the smartest kid on the block, you know? Or in town. [Laughs.] Which was not true, of course, but she always believed in me and then that I can, you know, kind of, yeah, kind of go ways, you know? [00:41:31] Ashraf Tubeileh: And for me, there was no future in Palestine. Not just for me, for anyone. There's no future in Palestine, you know, like, you're stuck with this system. Your freedom is limited. Your abilities are restrained. And I can give you more, I can elaborate on some of these later on. And there's really no, you know, like nothing you can, like you can do outside the box, you know, like, to be yourself there. Like if you have, you know, like an ability or a special, you know, like kind of thing, then you cannot really achieve it there. [00:42:08] Ashraf Tubeileh: So. And there was no graduate education anywhere, so anyways, to start with, at the time, so we're talking in the nineties. And, yeah, so the, the only way for me. And we came from, like my father was a school teacher, so, you know, and my mother was working at home. So, you know, like nothing really, it's not like we had lots of money or, we were just middle class kind of people. [00:42:39] Ashraf Tubeileh: So if you didn't have, you know, like, money to start your own kind of business or, you know, like, or even, you know, like a trade from kind of the father or something like that, then what else can you do? So not very many options, for me, back there. So, yeah, so like going to France was kind of a dream. [00:43:04] Ashraf Tubeileh: Actually, I wanted to go to the US [laughs]. I remember at the time it was, you know, like I still had, from the time, you know, like you'd, write kind of colleges, you know, and they'll send you kind of application packages and stuff. I still have like a ton of, you know, they, they're kind of brochures and you know, like application packages. Some of them I still even, like, I have them now still in Nablus, so I always kept those. Yeah, I was trying to, to go to the US but yeah, I remember kind of, yeah, that the influence from my English teacher. But, just that just never materialized. And then the opportunity just, you know, like presented itself with the full ride scholarship, you know, like in France. So I couldn't, you know, I couldn't be happier. [00:43:53] Ashraf Tubeileh: To be honest. So, yeah. And basically that kind of shaped who I am now. You know, like after, after going kind of to grad school in France. And, yeah, and that's where I met my wife as well. So kind of big... [00:44:10] Elizabeth Sine: In France? [00:44:11] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah, in France. Yeah. [00:44:11] Elizabeth Sine: In college, okay. [00:44:12] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah, in college. [00:44:14] Elizabeth Sine: And, just kind of another question about kind of, situating or kind of retracing those years before you left too. Like, part of what I'm hearing is, you know, these different support systems that you had in these relationships that kind of helped kind of, helped you and navigate your own path, and people who were influential. Did, in thinking about the aspects of the, of your experience there that were so difficult and that were traumatic, did you have like, were there people that you could share with and kind of talk through and process some of these experiences with, like when you lost your friend, for example, or some of the other things that, you were around or that you'd witnessed? [00:45:15] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah. It would, well, yeah. [00:45:16] Elizabeth Sine: Did you have emotional support, I guess? [00:45:17] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah, friends, but I mean, we always were going, kind of all of us, we were going kind of through the same kind of, you know, like hardships and through the same, you know, like he was my friend, but he was the friend of so many others as well. [00:45:34] Ashraf Tubeileh: And, so, and kind of the friend thing was, you know, because of the kind of school on and off and, you know, like street on and off and you know, like movement on and off, you know, like kind of, kind of staying inside. And communication was not as it is today, you know, like with phones and everything. [00:45:54] Ashraf Tubeileh: So even that limited, you know, like your circle of, of people that you know, like you would, so it would be mostly your kind of immediate neighbors and you know, like your, like immediate family that are living with you in that kind of space that, that you can, you know, like, kind of talk to and, you know, get support from and, and, and, and this and that. So, yeah. Plus I was kind of nerdy to be honest, and, so, I was never very social, you know, like as a person. So it was more like, okay, reading, you know? Like writing, yeah. Yeah. Maybe that did answer your question, kind of but... [00:46:49] Elizabeth Sine: No, no, it does, it does. I'm just wondering about those kind of pathways for processing the emotional dimensions, but it sounds like family... [00:46:58] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah family, neighbors a little bit. [00:46:58] Elizabeth Sine: And also academic, academic life... [00:47:01] Ashraf Tubeileh: Academic life. Yeah. [00:47:03] Elizabeth Sine: Yeah. And so you moved to France? [00:47:08] Ashraf Tubeileh: I moved to France, yes. [00:47:09] Elizabeth Sine: Can you share about that experience and what it was like to arrive there? [00:47:14] Ashraf Tubeileh: Well, that was a whole, you know, like that was, you know, like, I remember kind of the first time I arrived in the dorm, basically like, well, that was the first time I took a, you know, like a plane, a train. And then, yeah, the first, my kind of, when I was walking into the dorm, there were kind of kids playing, ping pong. [00:47:39] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah. Like table tennis. And they were kind of, you know, like I was kind of, holding my luggage and kind of walking in and they all look at me and then, you know, they were so, so friendly and so, you know, like welcoming, you know, like as I was walking in, they kind of stopped me. "Hey, what's your name? What are you, where are you from? What are you doing here?" A lot of them were actually from other Arab countries. And, at the time I had never pretty much, you know, besides kind of, you know, visits to Syria or Jordan, but like I had never, you know, like met with people from other Arab countries, especially kind of, because this is France, so, but a lot of the people there would be from the Maghreb area. [00:48:23] Ashraf Tubeileh: Maghreb is like the western part of the Aran world. Like Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Mauritania, Libya, et cetera. And they were like, you know, like as I was telling them, you know, like, yeah, I'm from Palestine. Like people would like, oh, you know, like, yeah. Like they'll show all their affection and their love and their appreciation and they, like, they were taking care of me, you know, from like second one, not day one, [laughs] from like the first second. I remember, you know, like I was being kind of more, remember how I told you, how was it I was telling you before that, you know, like kind of social kind of ties were kind of pretty much cut, you know, like back in, in Nablus because of all the events and the curfews and this and that. [00:49:05] Ashraf Tubeileh: Like here I really had a very strong, you know, like kind of friend kind of social network. And although like I'm, I was supposed to be, well, I was studying hard, but you know, like also kind of the social life was a big part of me as well now. Like it kind of really picked up, you know, like big time. As I, well like we would be, you know, like playing soccer again and, well playing ping pong, you know, like sometimes even, which I hate playing basketball with them, but just because they were playing basketball. I would go, you know, like, and play basketball with them. And that would be really the least of my kind of sports. [00:49:46] Ashraf Tubeileh: But, yeah, so things really kind of picked up, you know, like quite nicely at the time. And, yeah, so I was very happy, you know, like in my, well, going out from the prison that I was living in, you know, like in, in, in Nablus, and, kind of seeing the world, seeing people from different places, you know, like different cultures, people from South America, from, you know, like Spain, from Germany, et cetera, et cetera. And you know, like just, oh yeah, like there is a world, you know, like out here. [00:50:22] Elizabeth Sine: Where in France were you located? [00:50:24] Ashraf Tubeileh: That was Nancy, in the northeast. [00:50:26] Elizabeth Sine: Okay. [00:50:26] Ashraf Tubeileh: Nancy, basically, yeah. But you say it Nancy in French. [00:50:29] Elizabeth Sine: Yeah. And you met your wife there? [00:50:33] Ashraf Tubeileh: I met my wife there. [00:50:34] Elizabeth Sine: And was she going to the same school? [00:50:36] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yes. [00:50:37] Elizabeth Sine: Okay. [00:50:37] Ashraf Tubeileh: She arrived, what, I think a couple of months after me. Yeah. [00:50:44] Elizabeth Sine: Okay. [00:50:44] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah, and it's, well, this is another kind of hilarious story because I was, so you remember how you asked me a minute ago, where was that in France? So I was supposed to go to Montpellier, which is in the south on the Mediterranean coast. And for whatever reason, you know, like they couldn't find kind of the discipline that I wanted to do or whatever. [00:51:07] Ashraf Tubeileh: So they moved me up to the, to this location in, Nancy, northeast. So like, pretty much, you know, the other end of France. Well the south was, you know, like, well Mediterranean, so, you know, like nice weather, beautiful beaches, you know, like lots of things to do, et cetera, et cetera. The north was more like cold, overcast, you know, like, kind of sad weather, et cetera. [00:51:29] Ashraf Tubeileh: So, but anyways, so I ended up in, in Nancy and after I met my wife, you know, like one, one of the, we were kind of discussing, you know, how did you end up here? You know, like, what brought you here? And she, she, she said I was, well, I was going to Montpellier and then yeah, things didn't work out and for whatever reason they told me, "Oh no, we have to reroute you to another school." [00:51:57] Ashraf Tubeileh: And I ended up in this school. So it was kind of the same kind of, you know, like kind of failed path, you know, that brought us kind of both to this kind of, to this other school. So. Interesting. You know, like, I thought, like what are the odds? You know, like both of us, you know, like were supposed to go to that school and then both of us were rerouted kind to this school. Was it meant to be? Or maybe, you know, we were meant to meet there, but we met here, whatever. But, you know, kind of, it was, I dunno, a weird coincidence. [00:52:27] Elizabeth Sine: Yeah. You found each other? [00:52:28] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah, we found each other somehow. [00:52:30] Elizabeth Sine: Where did she grow up? [00:52:31] Ashraf Tubeileh: In Aleppo, Syria. [00:52:33] Elizabeth Sine: Okay. [00:52:34] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah. [00:52:36] Elizabeth Sine: All right. And what was she studying at school? [00:52:38] Ashraf Tubeileh: Well, she was doing the same thing, you know, like agronomy, which is like plant science, agriculture. [00:52:43] Elizabeth Sine: Yeah. [00:52:45] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah. But she arrived after me. Her French was... Remember how I told you I was studying French before? So my French was okay, you know? Well, okay. It, it was not immersion level of course, but you know, like I could kind of get by, kind of figure things out, kind of manage a conversation with people. But she couldn't, at the time, she like her French was much kind of weaker, poorer. [00:53:12] Ashraf Tubeileh: So, yeah. So, I was told actually by the, like we were both in the same lab and when she arrived I was told by the lab director that, "Hey, you know, there is this, this girl coming from Syria." Because I speak Arabic, she speaks Arabic. So he thought I could help her. So, and kind of, yeah, that was the spark, or not really the spark because no, she was engaged at the time. So did she had other plans, et cetera, but... [00:53:40] Elizabeth Sine: Oh, wow. [00:53:41] Ashraf Tubeileh: No, there was nothing really at the time kind of between us. I was just offering my help, so. [Laughs.] [00:53:47] Elizabeth Sine: Sure. [00:53:47] Ashraf Tubeileh: But yeah, there was a long story kind of on the side. [00:53:50] Elizabeth Sine: Yeah. [00:53:50] Ashraf Tubeileh: Besides that. Yeah. [00:53:54] Elizabeth Sine: So backing up a little bit, how did you get into agronomy and what drew you to that field? [00:54:03] Ashraf Tubeileh: Oh, okay. Yeah, this is a great question. So remember how I told you I was, kind of, I took a hit, with, you know, I kind of, my school closing for like half the year? So that meant that I couldn't really, you know, like go to engineering school, which is what I had wanted to do. You know, like engineering, architecture pretty much was my kind of passion at the time when I was, you know, like kind of in high school. So I couldn't get there because of my grades. [00:54:34] Ashraf Tubeileh: So the next best thing was, well agriculture because I always loved, you know, like gardening. And I would always, you know, like, I remember kind of, you know, like as a kid and that was just me. Well, and my father, I took that from my father, I think. [00:54:53] Ashraf Tubeileh: So my father also loved gardening and he would grow, you know, like plants. We had a little kind of citrus orchard n the Jordan Valley. Well, that's another story that, you know, like if we have another ten hours, we can go kind of visit. But, and we would go, you know, like sometimes, you know, like go like for holidays, for weekends, sometimes, you know, like go work in that citrus orchard. [00:55:19] Ashraf Tubeileh: We didn't have to because there was a guy in charge of it. But it's just my father always wanted, you know, like to get his hands on and kind of help and prune and, you know, like, and apply fertilizer and do this and do that. And it was all done by hand. So. So I remember kind of, that was my kind of first exposure to agriculture with my father, helping him. [00:55:45] Ashraf Tubeileh: Although again, he's a school teacher and we always grew up in the city and everything, so we're, it's not like we were, you know, like farmers. But yeah, because of that citrus orchard and because of gardening, so his love to gardening. And then I inherited that from him, like, you know, like planting green onions, green beans, broad beans, fava beans, potatoes sometimes. So I would just, you know, like kind of play with these things. [00:56:17] Elizabeth Sine: In Nablus? [00:56:17] Ashraf Tubeileh: In Nablus, yes. We had a little backyard and you know, like I would kind of, do all these kind of, you know, like pretty much even, you know, like do research. You know, like, I was a kid, you know, but like pour water here. Because like, you know, like our kind of land was sloping, so pour water here and see how much water, we just visualize, you know, like how much water, you know, like gets kind of to the other end of like, I you know, like dig a canal. [00:56:43] Ashraf Tubeileh: I called it like irrigation canal, just for fun, you know, like there's, because I could just have saved all the water and put it on the plants instead, you know, like of. But I was just, you know, like, okay, let's pour water here and, you know, like, like, dig a canal, pour water up here and then see how much, you know, like ends up in. [00:57:00] Ashraf Tubeileh: And then afterwards I would play with concrete and you know, like I, I remember kind of building a small kind of concrete kind of, you know, canal. So this is my construction, architecture, engineering kind of thing. I mean, all for, you know, stupid things. Not that, you know, like improved anything, but just for fun. [00:57:18] Elizabeth Sine: Well, not at all stupid. But this was all independently. This was all just you were just interested, there wasn't, it wasn't... [00:57:21] Ashraf Tubeileh: Independently yeah, no, it was just me. You know like, yeah like, remember kind of all these days with curfews and all these days with doing nothing, school closed, et cetera, et cetera. This how I filled up my time, you know, like, doing gardening. [00:57:32] Elizabeth Sine: And at some point, at some point you came to see that as something that you could pursue. [00:57:38] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah. At some point. Yeah. I mean, I still do, you know, like at home. Gardening is... Like right now as we speak, I started, I'm germinating, apricot seeds, kind of reminds us of home, you know. And, well, we had a fight with my wife the other day over this, because I had bought, well, not bought, I had, well, from a tree here, an apricot tree. I had gathered some seeds and I germinated them, and I started, now we have like three, you know, one of the trees is like this big, and my wife she's like, no, these are not really, you know, they're not the same. Like, she, she's not really convinced, you know, like, kind of they're gonna taste good. [00:58:19] Ashraf Tubeileh: So she wanted... So last year, was it last year? The year before, '23. We were in Spain and you know, like, we were eating the kind of, those fruits, actually we're just walking in the streets. And, and, and she stopped by and grabbed, you know, like, my son, "Hey, yeah, come, come see the, these apricots." You know? And, so they were kind of white apricots and, they were kind of different, you know, like they were very tasty, like very fragrant, you know, like you can smell, you know, kind of, they're like from, you know, several feet away. You can smell them. So. And then so they, they bought some, and so we were eating them and. [00:59:02] Ashraf Tubeileh: Anyways, so long story short, they're germinating now. So we're gonna, we're gonna start those, hopefully, you know, like kind of those new apricot kind of trees. [00:59:12] Elizabeth Sine: Yeah. [00:59:12] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah. [00:59:14] Elizabeth Sine: So that interest, and exploration was, pun, budding for you. [Both laugh]. [00:59:24] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yes. [00:59:25] Elizabeth Sine: And then you're pursuing it in college, studying agronomy. You meet your wife who's engaged. At some point she's, I take it, no longer engaged to somebody else? [00:59:38] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah, exactly. This is, it was not because of me, it was just, you know, like things didn't work out for the other person. [00:59:44] Elizabeth Sine: Sure. [00:59:44] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah. And part of that was because she, she went to France and he was back in Syria and, yeah. So, and yeah. Long story, but that's, that's her side of the story. I don't want to tell her story. [00:59:58] Elizabeth Sine: Sure, sure. [00:59:59] Ashraf Tubeileh: So, yeah. [01:00:00] Elizabeth Sine: But, as far as your story goes, how long were you in France for, and Nancy specifically and what, where'd you go from there? [01:00:12] Elizabeth Sine: Almost six years? Yeah, so I, yeah, so between '95. October '95 and October 2000. Well, and then I did like a short postdoc after that. Well, postdoc because also, my wife had not finished so, until May 2001. Yeah. So after that, oh, that's where the interesting kind of stuff starts. So after that, because my wife is Syrian and we didn't have French, well, we already had our baby actually at the time, in 2001. [01:00:54] Elizabeth Sine: Sarah was born in March 2001. So after that I was applying kind of, you know, like kind of for jobs in the US with no luck. Well, it was 2001, so it was the dotcom kind of meltdown, you know, like crash. There was the bubble, if you remember, and you know, like economy was doing terrible. And then, so couldn't find a job, you know, like after, finishing PhD and things were even worse in Europe, so we didn't have very many options. [01:01:36] Elizabeth Sine: And at the time, an opportunity opened and because it was kind of the, there was some, some progress, like some peace talks, you know, like between the PLO, Palestine Liberation Organization, like Palestinian Authority, if you wish, and Israel over a permanent, you know, like solution. And so I was kind of hopeful that things might, you know, like get resolved. [01:02:06] Elizabeth Sine: So, I took a job with the Ministry of Agriculture in Palestine at the time, and I had nothing else. So it's not like, you know, like, it was not really any, you know, like, so that was the only option I had. So, and, but my wife, she's from Syria, so she couldn't go with me to Palestine because the Israelis still control the border and they don't allow anyone from, from any country that didn't have diplomatic relationships with them to cross in. So... [01:02:44] Elizabeth Sine: Even spouses. [01:02:45] Ashraf Tubeileh: Even spouses, I would... [01:02:46] Elizabeth Sine: And daughter. [01:02:48] Ashraf Tubeileh: And my daughter, she would be able to go, yes. I was able to take her. Okay. But, yeah, so my daughter would get kind of inherit my citizenship, you know, Palestinian, whatever kind of ID, and then she can, she can, but yeah, I need to apply and kind of, yeah, like go get her an ID, et cetera. [01:03:08] Ashraf Tubeileh: So it's a long process, but it's possible. But not for my wife. For my wife now, they had a program that would be, you know, like on and off. Sometimes that you can apply for, you know, like your spouse and you just, you know, like sometimes you luck out and, you know, like, within two years, maybe three years, they, they would tell you, "Yes." [01:03:32] Ashraf Tubeileh: And especially when, you know, like kind of negotiations were kind of still going. So they would tell you, "Yes. Okay." And actually there was a big lineup for that because, you know, so many people are in the same situation that they wanted to get, you know, kind of residency, you know, like approval for their kind of spouses. [01:03:54] Ashraf Tubeileh: So we did apply for her and we never heard back actually. So, but like people would, you know, like, wait, some of them, you know, from the eighties would wait like twenty years. Now you know, like people maybe with connections they might get it, you know, like in two, three, four years. But this is only when, you know, like there, there's kind of that opening. Because they just open, sometimes they call it, like family reunion type of thing, and they just open, you know, like for like six months or one year. You know, like they kind of process kind of, some applications. And then they again, you know, like as soon as they're not, you know, like happy with the negotiations anymore, they just stop this, they just freeze that. [01:04:38] Ashraf Tubeileh: And then, you know, like kind of that pile just, you know, keeps growing, growing, growing. So there was really no chance of her getting that, you know, like family reunion. So she stayed in Syria with her family. And then for, that was between May 2001 and, April 2002. So in April 2002, there was another incursion, like a big military kind of invasion again by the Israelis. It's not like, well, it's invading the cities that they had handed over to the Palestinian Authority. Now they decided to take them back. It's just these cities and the cities we're talking, you know, like a few square miles each. [01:05:23] Ashraf Tubeileh: So not nothing really kind of huge. So they decided, kind take those back. So at the time, I remember kind of my late father at the time, he told me, you know, like, "Yeah, they're gonna come in, they're gonna, there's gonna be a mess. Pack up and go." Because my wife was outside with my daughter and I was, I would be stuck in there for like, maybe months, maybe years, or like, no one knew what was gonna happen. Because the peace negotiations had just failed, and there was, it was obvious. Well, and this was 2002 and we're 2025. And things have not changed since then. Well, I mean, they have changed for the worse. So it was obvious that, you know, like things won't really kind of going to be better anytime soon. [01:06:06] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah. So I remember even my father at the time, actually, he called me from, because he was not at home, so he called from, yeah, he was like, outside and he had heard something, some rumors or some whatever. [01:06:19] Ashraf Tubeileh: So he called me, he said, "Pack up and go now." Not like, I didn't even wait to say goodbye to him, you know, like kind of to come back. So, yeah. And so I just packed up and, and left. [01:06:33] Elizabeth Sine: Like physically. How did you leave? [01:06:35] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah physically just, you know, like in, in an hour... [01:06:38] Elizabeth Sine: Get on a train? Like how did you, just go to the... [01:06:40] Ashraf Tubeileh: Well, no, there was no trains in the West Bank. So like, get into, at the time, oh, this is another story. At the time, because the, the Israelis were already encircling, sieging, you know, besieging Nablus. So we had [laughs], we had to go on a donkey. Because we had to cross not, you know, we couldn't even go on the roads. We had to cross kind of through the hills. [01:07:06] Ashraf Tubeileh: And, so like I had a suitcase with me, whatever, you know, like, like stuff I had. So, so the suitcase was going on, the donkey, I was kind of with the, well the donkey had like, people would help you basically on the donkey. And this is the transport method that the only one that you have. Well, to cross, I dunno, like maybe, half a mile maybe or so, but just to get from one road to the next road. And you know like bypassing like, an Israeli checkpoint basically. Because otherwise you can't just, because otherwise, yeah, with a car you can't cross. But when they decide, you know, you're not crossing like they shut down the road basically, then nobody can just move and no cars would be allowed to cross, to go. [01:07:59] Ashraf Tubeileh: So they would cross, close that road. And then what we would do is, you know, like, go on, kind of this, you know, like kind of reroute basically in the hills. Like just walk, you know, like, and kind of climb up, you know, kind of rocks and hills and so forth, to get, you know, like to the other end of the road, past the Israeli checkpoint. [01:08:19] Elizabeth Sine: So you could kind of bypass the checkpoint that way. [01:08:20] Ashraf Tubeileh: So you could bypass the checkpoint, get another car. [01:08:23] Elizabeth Sine: Okay. [01:08:24] Ashraf Tubeileh: And then go to the border. [01:08:25] Elizabeth Sine: And would you have to coordinate to get a car? [01:08:28] Ashraf Tubeileh: Well, I mean they'd be waiting, there'd be cars. There's just like taxis. [01:08:31] Elizabeth Sine: Okay. Okay. [01:08:31] Ashraf Tubeileh: Just waiting for people to come show up, you know, and then you just, yeah, jump in the car and then yes, they will, they will take you to the other, you know, like whatever you're going. [01:08:40] Elizabeth Sine: Wow. [01:08:40] Ashraf Tubeileh: And like at the time, 2002, maybe now, now as well, it's coming back. But at, at the time, you know, like, you're, that was the only way of moving from one town to the other in the West Bank. [01:08:55] Ashraf Tubeileh: Because like they, they were kind of besieging all the kind of main kind of cities in the West Bank. And, they were trying, you know, like, to limit, well, I mean, trying to make, you know, like everyone's life hell, you know, and really kind of make it miserable for people to leave. And, well, that worked out with me, like, yeah. I had to, I had to go. [01:09:17] Elizabeth Sine: And you made it. [01:09:18] Ashraf Tubeileh: I made it yes. [01:09:18] Elizabeth Sine: Like how long, how long did it take to exit to from like, getting that phone call to like get to your... [01:09:22] Ashraf Tubeileh: And actually, we got shot at actually the, at the same time. Because at the top of that hill, if you, if you visualize kind of, you know, like a map of the West Bank, pretty much, you know, like almost every kind of high hill they have built an Israeli settlement and military checkpoints and you know, like outposts and everything on it. Because like the hill is here, you know, the road is here and kind of it's like, you know, like, or like the top of the hill is here. [01:09:50] Ashraf Tubeileh: So we were crossing like that, you know, like to bypass kind of this. So they would shoot at us from here, down, down the hill. 'Cause we were trying, you know, like kind of to bypass the, their checkpoint. So. So we got shot at, at the time and, well, lucky... [01:10:06] Elizabeth Sine: Who's we? Were you... [01:10:08] Ashraf Tubeileh: Well, I mean the different people. Yeah. Different random people trying just to cross. [01:10:12] Elizabeth Sine: Gotcha. [01:10:12] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah. Anyone trying to cross, you know, bypass that checkpoint. Yeah. So I remember kind of, yeah, getting shot at, at that time. And I don't remember anyone being injured, but like, you know, at other times, other places, people get killed. So that was again, another kind of lucky kind of, you know, moment for me. [01:10:33] Elizabeth Sine: Yeah. And you made it out? [01:10:36] Ashraf Tubeileh: I made it out. That was again, April 2002. So met my wife in Syria. And then, there was an international research center in Syria. So I applied with them and I got like, there was, they were having training courses and I think, you know, like given the situation in Palestine, they were kind of a little kind of understanding. So they, so I joined a training course with them. [01:11:13] Ashraf Tubeileh: After that I managed to get, like a contract kind of with them to work with them for another, whatever. So the training course was two months and then I managed to get a contract with them for another six months. And then after that I applied for a postdoc with them, and I got the postdoc with them now for like another, like four years or so. [01:11:40] Ashraf Tubeileh: So, well, it's kind of long for a postdoc, you know, usually postdocs are more like a year, two maybe. But, because I think this is, so we are getting into 2007 and, so at the time when we were in France, 2001 [pause] or 2000, we applied for Canadian, you know, like kind of to immigrate to Canada, when we were in France. Because we knew this was gonna happen, you know, like. Yeah the other day with my wife, like two days ago, we were kind of talking, you know, like, well, yeah, what we did was crazy because you know, like, I mean, it was really very speculative in nature, you know, like, okay, like she cannot live. [01:12:31] Ashraf Tubeileh: And that's the other thing, I could not even go to Syria without, you know, like, because like Syria and the leader of the PLO Arafat at the time, so the president of Syria and Arafat were not very good friends. You know, like, and because of that and because of the Oslo Accords that Arafat signed. So, Assad of Syria, Hafez al-Assad at the time, he decided not to allow Palestinians in, as, you know, like a punishment, you know, like for kind of signing the Oslo Accords with Israel. And he was probably right, because like they were disastrous. The Oslo Accords, what we're seeing today is all, you know, like, kind of fruits of the Oslo Accords. [01:13:13] Ashraf Tubeileh: But anyways, so I could not go in Syria just like that. I needed to have, you know, like a prior approval. Like a visa, but it's harder to obtain than a visa because you need kind of to get it from the security services pretty much. Not like from the, you know, like foreign affairs or like the ministry of like, department of state, like here, or it's, or like a consulate, but no, like you have to go through the security services to get it. [01:13:44] Elizabeth Sine: But you were able to get in. [01:13:46] Ashraf Tubeileh: I was able to get in. So with, yeah. My wife's family, they helped, they knew people, et cetera. So they... [01:13:52] Elizabeth Sine: Okay. [01:13:53] Ashraf Tubeileh: And because, I was now working with, or like, while I'm doing the training with, a starting point with the, with this international research center. So they helped me with that afterwards. So they got like a residency permit for me. And that would be renewed every year. Yeah. [01:14:12] Elizabeth Sine: So you did your postdoc there for four years? [01:14:16] Ashraf Tubeileh: I did my postdoc and I was applying kind of for jobs at the same time in the US and in Canada. And remember how we had applied for immigration to Canada back in 2000? [01:14:29] Ashraf Tubeileh: So when I arrived in Syria, 2002, I contacted, we had applied in Paris. So, and I had not really heard anything from them like for like eighteen months, maybe two years. Well between the time we applied and the time I was in Syria, which is like almost two years. Yeah, almost two years. So I called the, Canadian Embassy in Damascus and I told them, hey, yeah, this is, you know, like I applied for immigration to Canada and this and that, and I haven't hear back from them, so what should I do? [01:15:12] Ashraf Tubeileh: So they told me, contact them and, transfer your application here to Damascus and we will kind of, it'll be faster here. Because like their office in Paris was responsible for all of Africa. [01:15:27] Elizabeth Sine: Oh. [01:15:28] Ashraf Tubeileh: So, and Europe and so many other places. So the lineup would be like crazy huge, you know, like kind of, so this is what I did. And then from there, I remember, we received like, so things went I think six months after that. I already heard the first approval from them. And by 2004, we already had the visa, or like 2003, I think end of 2003, we had a year, you know, like kind of to use the visa. So we had October 2003, I remember that. [01:16:07] Ashraf Tubeileh: Because we had, end of October, 2003, we had the visa. So we had a year, kind of to go to Canada. So, because you know, like I was working with the center, and and I was kind of happy and I was just starting my postdoc and I had nothing, you know, like in terms of jobs or, you know, like other opportunities. I was applying. But you know, like, it's hard, you know, like, I was not hearing anything. And again, this was, we're talking now like 2003, 2004. So the economy was booming-ish at the time. But still, I was not getting any kind of job interviews or any, you know, like anything. So, I decided, okay, you know what, okay, we'll go to Canada, I'll get our papers, you know, like get, because when you go, like, it's like here, when you come to the US you get like a green card-ish, you know, like permanent president card basically. [01:17:09] Ashraf Tubeileh: And then you have whatever they give you that. So in Canada, they give you that for five years, but within the five years you have to stay in the country for three years to keep it. Otherwise, if you don't stay a minimum of three years, you lose it. So we went to Canada, we got the green card, Canadian kind of green card, and then we went back to Syria, because of my job. [01:17:34] Ashraf Tubeileh: So there's, my job is here, you know, like kind of, it's at least, you know, it's a postoc, but at least, you know, like it pays the bills. And yeah. So I stayed with that, with that job until kind of pretty much the, remember that we had like a max of two years that we can stay outside. So we pretty much, two years or three years? Yeah. I think you have to stay at least two years out of the five years. Yeah, because like what we stayed was less than two years after, or what was left was, anyways, so long story short, so a little bit more than two years left on our green card. So we decided kind of to go to Canada now to keep our, because now this is, otherwise we'll lose that and then we'll be in the same problem again. Where to live, where to go. [01:18:30] Elizabeth Sine: And you were spending the time that you could in Syria to be in your position, your job plus be near her family? [01:18:40] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yes. [01:18:40] Elizabeth Sine: Supposing, yeah. [01:18:41] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah. I mean, yes, we were kind of, yeah, in the beginning we. Yeah, we were, we stayed with her family, but then afterwards we kind of, you know, we rented like an apartment on our own. And yeah, we were kind of, well, she was very happy because, you know, like she's close to her family. [01:18:58] Elizabeth Sine: Yeah. [01:18:58] Ashraf Tubeileh: And her kind of parents were older. So she was appreciating every minute that she was spending with them and you know, like with the kid, you know, like having kind of your, kind of your parents around you, that's a big help. [01:19:15] Elizabeth Sine: Yeah. [01:19:15] Ashraf Tubeileh: So, and they were kind of, everyone was getting attached to everyone, you know, like, and kind of, yeah. [01:19:22] Ashraf Tubeileh: So, so yeah, everyone's happy and we can, this is why we can try to like, almost down to the wire, you know, like with our kind of Canadian papers, just so that we don't lose them. And then afterwards, it was kind of time, you know, like kind of to go back to Canada and there was also a change where I was working, you know, like a new boss came in and, well, kind of different mentality of work, and it was just time, kind of, you know, to go. [01:19:49] Elizabeth Sine: Sure. [01:19:50] Ashraf Tubeileh: So I was applying kind of for jobs in Canada at the time I was not really hearing back anything. Now it's kind of, this is 2007, it's time for the other kind of meltdown to start. Remember the first one it's the 2000, 2000 kind of, you know, like dotcom bubble. And kind of bursting of that bubble. Now it's, it's kind of the mortgage kind of meltdown. And again, you know, like not very many opportunities. But well, luckily somehow, somehow, you know, like I had applied for a job a year before and this job for some reason, you know, it was readvertised a year after that. So now I'm in Canada. I remember it was like August maybe. I think it was, or July, August? It was July. Because I had my interview in August, I think. It was July 2007. And I, there was this job again, you know, like from the same, like I applied or that same position a year ago. And it's open again. So I reapply again. And a couple of days, I think I applied like the Friday or the Thursday. And on Monday, I get that phone call, or I think email in the beginning that yeah, you have this interview. So it's the same job, you know, everything. So, yeah. So it was exciting, you know, like, and this was like after what I think like a month of us arriving in Canada. So we were very lucky, you know, like things were just, you know, like the stars were really aligning for us. [01:21:43] Elizabeth Sine: You said it was the same job as in like the same job you had been doing? [01:21:46] Ashraf Tubeileh: It was exact same. Well, kind of, no, it's not the same that I was doing, but like, it's the same job that I had applied for a year before. [01:21:55] Elizabeth Sine: Oh, okay. Gotcha. [01:21:56] Ashraf Tubeileh: I never heard back from them. Not even, yes, thank you. We received this or, you know, like, no thanks. Yeah, we picked someone else. [01:22:02] Elizabeth Sine: Yeah. [01:22:02] Ashraf Tubeileh: Nothing. But yeah, so there, there was a job that was advertised first time and then in 2006 and then again 2007. Now I was in Canada, so I applied for that again. I told them I'm here in Montreal. That was, and the job was like in the Ottawa area, so two, two hours away from that. [01:22:23] Ashraf Tubeileh: So, so I told them, like, I kind of changed my cover letter and kind of put, you know, like where my current location is and this and that and well luckily they read that, so they, yeah. So they gave me that interview. And then I got the job. [01:22:39] Elizabeth Sine: And it was... [01:22:40] Ashraf Tubeileh: And it was like, like here basically pretty much, you know, like it, it was a teaching kind of research job. Kind of college. It was not assistant professor, it was something called, because this was kind of a satellite campus. It was kind of, they called it college professor as the title, but it was like assistant professor pretty much without tenure. That was kind of the nature of the job. [01:23:04] Elizabeth Sine: And where? [01:23:04] Ashraf Tubeileh: The University of Guelph. Guelph. [01:23:06] Elizabeth Sine: Guelph. [01:23:07] Ashraf Tubeileh: Guelph. G-U-E-L-P-H. Yeah. Many people kind of, yeah. Many people say "Gelph." But anyways, so Guelph, which is, so they have a satellite campus just outside Ottawa. Actually they have two campuses outside Ottawa, outside Ottawa. One is French speaking, like French like education in French. And the other one is education in English. [01:23:32] Ashraf Tubeileh: So two regional kind of satellite campuses. The main campus of the University of Guelph is west of Toronto, like an hour west of Toronto. This one is like farther east, so near Ottawa. So, yeah, so I applied for the job. I got the interview, I got the job. [01:23:55] Elizabeth Sine: Yeah. [01:23:55] Ashraf Tubeileh: So, and things kind of from there were kind of smooth, basically, kind of really kind of things started, you know, like to work out for us after that. [01:24:06] Elizabeth Sine: How was the transition to settling into living in Canada? [01:24:12] Ashraf Tubeileh: [Laughs.] Hard. [01:24:13] Elizabeth Sine: After France, Syria? [01:24:14] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah, it was hard because yeah, in Syria we were happy. I was playing soccer. Kholoud had her parents around, and not just parents, like family, extended family, everyone, you know, like aunts and, uncle-, no, no uncles. Well, one uncle in Belgium, but, mostly aunts, cousins, lots of them, lots of cousins, for Kholoud in Syria. And friends. Friends from, you know, like school from, you know, like college, et cetera, et cetera. [01:24:45] Ashraf Tubeileh: It was hard more on Kholoud because also she was not working. I was working and I just, you know, like find soccer anywhere I go, so I just adapt easy. [Laughs.] So it was, yeah, I mean also we had friends. She had friends. Actually we stayed for a week with friends of her from college. That was, yeah, when we first got there and, and they helped us a lot. [01:25:14] Ashraf Tubeileh: So adjustment was okay. Now we had kind of to move to this regional campus, which was outside of the city, like forty, kind of, five minutes maybe outside the city. So it was, in the beginning we were wondering where should we live? You know, do we live in Ottawa, the big city where you get to meet more people where you can have more, you know, like kind of a social life, things to do jobs, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. [01:25:44] Ashraf Tubeileh: Or, because Kholoud at the time, she was not driving. And, and this is kind of typical of many people, you know, coming from at least, you know, like some Arab countries where you really rely on public transportation. Not really, you don't need a car. So she was, and she didn't, she never liked driving. Well, for other reasons, but so she wanted to stay, you know, like close to where my kind of work is. So we stayed in that little town outside of Ottawa for four years. [01:26:19] Elizabeth Sine: And was your wife working, you said? [01:26:21] Ashraf Tubeileh: She, she was not working at the time, although remember she has a PhD, but- [01:26:26] Elizabeth Sine: Yeah. [01:26:27] Ashraf Tubeileh: She was not working until like, she worked like part-time for I think a year or so, but yeah, that was it. So, yeah. Yeah. Again, I don't want to kind of to tell her story. I don't want to have, you know, like kind of mention my... [01:26:47] Elizabeth Sine: Oh, yeah, yeah. [01:26:47] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah, like judge her on that, but... [01:26:50] Elizabeth Sine: No, I mean, and she's parenting. [01:26:52] Ashraf Tubeileh: But yeah. She's parenting and she was... [01:26:52] Elizabeth Sine: I just mean that, trying to get a sense of the family structure. [01:26:56] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah. So, yeah, the parenting part was like a big part. Parenting and cooking. Yeah. She's, she's the best cook in the world. So, yeah. So, we stayed there for like four, four years. And then we decided maybe it was time kind of to move to the city. You know, because like where we were living was more like a small, like four, 5,000 people, you know, kind of little town. So not so much, you know, like around maybe even less than that. So, yeah. And, yeah, so we moved to the city and still [inaudible]. [01:27:39] Elizabeth Sine: How did you eventually make your way to the Central Coast in Cal Poly? [01:27:44] Ashraf Tubeileh: So, okay, so remember I, yeah. So this is, I was working for the satellite campus. And at some point there was kind of a budget cut and they decided to close. So they had three satellite campuses, they decided to close two of those and consolidate everything into one campus, one satellite campus, or the main campus. So they still had, like the main campus is there, but like everyone who wanted kind of, not everyone, but like, I was offered, you know, like to go to the other satellite campus. Which was another kind of remote town, small town, kind of close to Windsor, which is just across the river from Detroit. So an hour from Detroit maybe. [01:28:30] Ashraf Tubeileh: And that was one option for us, or the one option, actually the only option. So at the time, I, yeah, so we were just, you know, like we were uprooted again. So do we go with that, with what the university was offering or do we look for something new? And then, you know, like I was applying for different jobs, different places. [01:28:57] Ashraf Tubeileh: So this came up, you know, and I applied for this and I got the offer from here together with two other places. But I think well like, with the kids. It was mostly Sarah's decision actually. You know, like, yeah, like California over, you know, other places. It's a no brainer. [01:29:19] Elizabeth Sine: Sarah's decision, your daughter? [01:29:24] Ashraf Tubeileh: Through mostly Sarah, you know? [01:29:26] Elizabeth Sine: Yeah. [01:29:26] Ashraf Tubeileh: She wanted to come to California. She was, at the time, she was only fourteen, you know. And, but this is, you know, like fourteen, teenage, you know, like kind of, this is okay. Yeah. Like this is the time when, you know, like they want kind of to explore the world and, you know, like kind of make kind of whatever, you know, like go out and, yeah. [01:29:47] Ashraf Tubeileh: So it was mostly, well, I would say not mostly because you know, like, okay, of course, you know, like it was me at the end, but like that was a big factor, you know? Okay, no if, if this is what Sarah wants, okay, let's, yeah, let's see that. Yeah. And then actually in the, I think in the flight when I was coming here I met with two folks and, well, like they were like sitting next to me in that flight. They were going to Santa Barbara. And I told them, hey, you look, I have this offer here. Actually, I had another kind of interview in another location in the valley. And I told him I have this versus that. What do you all think? I mean, no, there's, I mean, it's like San Luis is where you want to be, so yeah. And they were kind, yeah, they were coming back from Germany kind of two engineers like nerdies, and you know, like, yeah. So, I, yeah, I took their word for it as well and you know, like, yeah. [01:30:54] Elizabeth Sine: What was your impression of the Central Coast when you arrived here? [01:30:59] Ashraf Tubeileh: Actually, for my interview, I was, it was in February and I was here, so I was calling my wife and, that was 2015. 2015. So ten years ago. I was calling her. And, I'm trying to remember whether we, I think we had WhatsApp at the time, but somehow, somehow I, you know, like I think it was on WhatsApp, you know, like I, you know, like I showed her, you know, like a video call of everything. And she turned, you know, like she turned her camera on as well, and she showed me, you know, like the inside of the doorknob and it had ice on it, on the inside. It happens, it happens in Canada. It happens when like temperatures are minus forty. It does happen. You know, like that you have like, because this is all metal, right? So it's conducting, you know, like the kind of temperature and it's, you know, like to a point and you know, like the door is like a two panel door and everything. And, but still 'cause it was so cold outside that, you know, like it was building ice on the inside of the doorknob. [01:32:31] Ashraf Tubeileh: So she told me, this is what you have, this is what I have here. [Laughs.] See, she still remembers that sometimes, you know, like when people ask her, you know, why did you come here? Or like, you know, like, what happened? Or like, tell us about Canada. And don't get me wrong, we love Canada, we still love Canada and everything, but you know, like the weather was so harsh. Their weather was really something that, you know, like, and especially after a certain age, you know, like kind of you grow less and less tolerance for these types of things. You want to have an easier life, so not, you know, like shoveling snow. I remember like one point, you know, like I had to shovel snow three times in a day. You know, because like, and this is, I don't know if you have experience with that, but you know, like that could be really tedious, you know, like if you live... [01:33:21] Elizabeth Sine: It's a lot of work. [01:33:23] Ashraf Tubeileh: So yeah, so. [01:33:25] Elizabeth Sine: So the weather struck you. [01:33:27] Ashraf Tubeileh: The weather struck me, you know, kind of here it's more like Mediterranean climate, which reminds me of home as well. Yeah. Like home. Nablus is like this except, that it's more, more like, I would say somewhere between this and, you know, like up the grade in terms of kind of, you know, climate. [01:33:43] Ashraf Tubeileh: It's a little kind of here, it's very mild, like really mild year round. Right. So. So, I mean, we would get, you know, like freezing temperatures maybe once a year or a couple of times a year, because it's kind of in the mountains, but it's not that high, it's not that far away from the ocean. It's only twenty miles from the ocean. So it's pretty much similar to this, but maybe a little colder, a little kind of, could be also a little hotter in the summer. So like, this is pretty much home, you know, like in terms of weather to me. [01:34:15] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah. So, so yeah. And nice people. There's that as well. You know, like here versus going somewhere else, in the state or, you know, like other states, you know, like that was also a big factor. [01:34:34] Elizabeth Sine: Yeah. I wonder if you would be open to sharing kind of more about like, as you decided to make the move here, kind of settled in, socially, culturally, what kinds of impressions did you, like, what sorts of things struck you about the place? What do you like, what sorts of challenges do you find about being here? [01:34:59] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah, so our, I think our first imp-, so we lived for a year up in Atascadero. So we rented a house in Atascadero. And, well actually on the way in, because we drove, you know, like all the way from Canada here, and I shipped kind of our house, you know, like our belongings. So that came kind of in a truck, but like, we drove here with the car. [01:35:27] Ashraf Tubeileh: So, we remember, you know, like we came on [Highway] 41 and it was kind of this time of the year or like, well end of July. And you know, like everything was well golden, you know, like kind of dry. And we were coming from Canada. Everything is green, lakes, lots of water, rivers, et cetera. So the dryness was one of the first thing that really kind of, you know, struck us like this, you know? [01:35:57] Ashraf Tubeileh: And at some point, Kholoud was worried that, you know, like, is this California? You know, like, this is not the California I had imagined. [Laughs.] 'Cause like east of Paso and east of Atascadero and kind of those, you know, like into the valley, this is what you get pretty much, you know, like after you, after you're done with the orchards, you know, like Fresno, et cetera. Coming this way, you know, like it's all very dry. [01:36:21] Ashraf Tubeileh: So that was kind of the first impression that, I remember kind of, and Kholoud still remembers very well that, you know, like I kind of saw her, saw that on her face that like she was, "Uhhh, I'm not sure this was a good decision" kind of thing. [01:36:41] Ashraf Tubeileh: So. But afterwards, so we lived a year in Atascadero, it was kind of a rented, you know, like house that was okay. I don't know if we would rent that again, but, you know, like it was not the best experience also, you know. Like for me here, you know, like, yeah, I was, again, people were very, very friendly, you know, like here, and this reminded us of the people in Canada. People in Canada, like sometimes the people tell, like, say, "They're too nice," right? I mean, they'd say sorry for anything and no, no, no nothing. [01:37:17] Ashraf Tubeileh: So kind of the people here in SLO kind of reminded us with, you know, like with that in Canada. So that was a pleasant surprise. And then so, people in the department were very welcoming and very friendly, very helpful. Actually, one of my colleagues, rented that apartment for us, so that was also very nice. [01:37:44] Ashraf Tubeileh: You know, like he, I mean he, because also finding, you know, like a place to stay in was a challenge at the very beginning. And I had a very unpleasant kind of experience with a property manager, that like, basically cursing at me and yelling at me and saying rude things, simply because I told them that, you know what, I'm taking your apartment regardless of, because I was in Canada, I didn't want to come here, you know, see the apartment. [01:38:11] Ashraf Tubeileh: I told them this is, I'm just, you know, doing this for like six months or a year, so I don't care what you give me. And like their policy was like, people have to see the apartment before they sign on the thing. So that person was not very nice to me, et cetera. Anyways, so, yeah. [01:38:33] Ashraf Tubeileh: So when I came here, you know, like, yeah, people in the department, people at university, you know, personnel, everyone was very nice, very welcoming and trying to help, you know, with whatever they can. Yeah. So, we stayed that year up in Atascadero. Well the weather, but you know, also, like my wife again, remember how I told you doesn't like driving, she's a slow driver. Just for her, you know, kind of backing up from a parking lot, like she got the middle finger because she was slow just backing up from a parking lot. [01:39:10] Ashraf Tubeileh: So she didn't really like, and because she was staying at home, so she didn't really like, you know, like life up the grade. To put it this way. So after that we tried, you know, like to find a place to buy. This was 2016 now, and we, well, the housing market was something that really struck us, you know, like, really hard because we put offers on six different houses and most of them going over the asking price at the time, and we couldn't get, well any of the first five, the sixth one was our lucky one. [01:39:50] Ashraf Tubeileh: Again, we went up with, but it was like an, you know, like a fixer upper and [laughs] we had to do a lot of work. And I think we really overpaid, you know, like kind of to get it. And the people were very patient with us because I think the process took us, because, you know, like with the credit score, we didn't even have enough money also, you know, for the down payment, with the prices here. [01:40:19] Ashraf Tubeileh: So I had to borrow money from my mother and from a cousin of my wife and you know, like lots of things and lots of paperwork. So like the process took us like, I don't know, two months, three months, just the paperwork for the mortgage. So we got that house that, you know, like we kind of moved into, in August 2016 and since that time we've been upgrading the house. [01:40:46] Ashraf Tubeileh: So, which I think we love it, you know, like the way it is now, like we kind of, it's very different from when we bought it. So we love it. We love the area, the neighbors are very friendly. We love the weather. It's, yeah. So. [01:41:05] Elizabeth Sine: Yeah. [01:41:05] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah. [01:41:07] Elizabeth Sine: What have, how have connections with the local Arab community taken shape for you, and what's it like to be a part of that? [01:41:16] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah, I remember one of the first things that I looked up, you know, like when I kind of took the job was, you know, like, like I typed the word "Arab San Luis Obispo." And I think the first thing that kind of jumped, you know, like on the Google search was, Arab Music Ensemble. So, so I was, oh, I can't believe that. Like really, Arab Music Ensemble here?! Okay! And this was before, even before coming here, before arriving here. So, I don't know if that was part of the decision, you know, kind of, or like making that decision to come here or not. But, yeah, that was a very nice surprise as well. So there was that. [01:41:53] Ashraf Tubeileh: And then I started looking up names, you know, like, on like, you know, just the, you know, like I would go, like, if I visit like the, you know, like the department names, you know, like, and check out, you know, their directory. See kind of if they have any kind of familiar names. Also, I came up with, well, Google, you know, kind of came up with the mosque here in town. [01:42:24] Ashraf Tubeileh: So I went to that. I met some people as well over there and you know, like kind of, yeah, things kind of started from there. You know, like meeting, you know, like yeah, through different people getting introduced to other people and so forth. And I think since the time, you know, we first arrived, I think the Arab community has really kind of exploded, I would say here. Well, at the university, but also in town, in the area. And so forth. [01:42:52] Elizabeth Sine: What are the places, whether it's physical places or social spaces, where do you feel most at home here? Or do, like, what does that mean to you, I guess? What, what does home mean to you? Where do you find it? [01:43:12] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah, so yeah, my wife is a very kind of social person. So with that, she, she always has to have, you know, like people at home, mostly people over, you know, like, for dinner, for, you know, like for whatever, like, yeah, like stop by, et cetera. [01:43:35] Ashraf Tubeileh: So we have, yeah, we have our network of people. So for me, I think again, you know, like we love our house now that we have, you know, like remodeled from like A to Z pretty much everything in it. You know, like windows, doors, floors, bathrooms, kitchen, everything. Fixtures. So we, I think we love being like our house. [01:43:57] Ashraf Tubeileh: This is, it really feels like home for us now. And, now that even that we're empty nesters. But you know, like sometimes we, like last week or the week before we were discussing, do we downsize? You know, because we have four bedrooms in our house, we don't really need them. But you know, like, we also kind of felt that we, like, I mean we have our, you know, like our print on everything, you know, like in the house we just, you know, like the trees, you know, like that we planted the landscaping that we did. [01:44:36] Ashraf Tubeileh: Because it was, it's very different. Like everything is different. You know, backyard, front yard, driveway. We changed everything. The one thing that we didn't change yet is the garage floor. We didn't kind of do anything to that, but I'm, I'm thinking of, you know, like painting that. So, and then the other thing was the garage door, you know, like from the garage to the inside of the house. Like right now as we speak, it's sitting outside, you know, like being sanded and we kind of, you know, like we're staining that. So kind of, this is the last thing that we had kind of, it's been sitting on the side, you know, like on our list. [01:45:14] Elizabeth Sine: You've really made it your own. [01:45:15] Ashraf Tubeileh: [Laughs.] We really made it our own, you know, like, and we really love this house and we have a nice view. We have good weather, so we kind of, you know, like sometimes we kind of, oh, like if we sell this, where would we go? You know, like it, and would we need to go like through the entire process again, you know, like of really making it your own house with your own touches, every, everything, you know, like with the colors, you know, like of. Because also, especially Kholoud, you know, like she likes kind of vibrant colors, you know, like if you kind of walk into our house, you know, like you'll see like, there's like a wall that's pink, another one that is blue. It's not neutral colors at all. So, it just feels like, you know, like it is very customized, you know, like to what we want and what we, you know, like always kind of, and you know, like every, every single thing in the house, you know, like pieces of furniture, you know, like glassware, you know, like everything has a story. [01:46:15] Ashraf Tubeileh: You know, like we got things from France. We got things from Germany when we were visiting, things from Syria, things from here, things from there. So, yeah. And lots of clutter too, but [laughs]... [01:46:29] Elizabeth Sine: It sounds very meaningful, all those touches. [01:46:32] Ashraf Tubeileh: Thank you. [01:46:35] Elizabeth Sine: Recognizing that we're approaching the end of the window of time that we have today. Is there anything that we haven't gotten to that you want to make sure that we touch on? [01:46:53] Ashraf Tubeileh: Yeah, I don't know, I think I kind of covered everything. Yeah. I think, well, we love our life here, especially, you know, like, on like the Central Coast. Especially, you know, like the kids. The kids have adapted in no time, although we uprooted them well multiple times, but also we uprooted them during a very sensitive time in their, you know, like kind of teenage years. [01:47:19] Ashraf Tubeileh: They were, you know, like coming here, Sarah was again fourteen and Sharif was thirteen. So it was really kind of a tough, you know, kind of, stage in their lives, but still they adapted in no time. And they, they made friends, you know, like, so easily, like Shareef now has, I dunno, like four or five, maybe six different circles of friends from everywhere we've been to, you know, like, from, from Canada, from Atascadero that year. He still, like last night he was playing with kind of his school mates, which is from what, like seven, eight years ago? [01:48:02] Ashraf Tubeileh: Because he just finished, you know, like college. So we're talking in his middle and high school kind of years. No, not that long. Well, yes, yes, actually, because he, yeah, he went to school starting 2016 there and you know, like it's nine years down the road. So yeah, I think, yeah, no, we were lucky, you know, like to have the, well the friends that we have. You know, like to be, for me, you know, like also to have the colleagues that I have, I think I, my department, you know, like my job here, I, yeah, I love everyone here and they've been very, very, you know, like supportive all the years. Yeah, that's, yeah the area, even students, you know, like are nice. So yeah. I don't know what else, you know, like someone can ask for. [01:48:58] Elizabeth Sine: Yeah. Well that's wonderful to hear. Well thank you very much for everything that you shared. I'll go ahead and end the recording and then we can wrap up together. [01:49:09] Ashraf Tubeileh: Sounds good. [01:49:09] Elizabeth Sine: Thank you.